Monday, September 18, 2006

The Self-righteous

I don't know if it is past experience or just a hobby horse but if there is one thing that riles me it is self-righteousness...people who think they have it all sorted...who love to cast the first stone.

My Acrobat and Summer's End posts have both gone in a direction I hadn't intended. I have no problem entering into a conversation with people whose views differ from mine provided there is an open mind on both sides. I appreciate the comments that were written in this tone. I have to say though that it amazes me how describing a Radiohead concert as I saw it can provoke personal attacks from people who don't know me.

I don't like navel gazing so I'll get it all out now...
-I don't pretend to have it all (or any of it) figured out.
-I get it wrong all the time.
-I try to understand God but realise I'm not even close.
-I am a sinner who is constantly screwing up.
-I wish I was a better.
-I try to be like Jesus.
-I owe a huge debt to grace.

33 comments:

Anonymous said...

Jon, you're a good man, keep doing what you are doing and don't let the bastards grind you down.

Brian h

Lee said...

Well John from my first comment on your radio Head Blog it sure took some twists and turns.
If you feel i have been self righteous then please address the areas of concern.
I do feel i have not taken anything outside of the scriptures, and also i have been honest enough to say that you are probably a better christian than me.
See i dont like a self righteous spirit either, but there is a vast difference between self righteousness and someone trying to show you where your going wrong.
Now i would expect you to do the same to me, as I DO NOT KNOW IT ALL, ONLY CHRIST KNOWS IT ALL.
Having said that in the book of Tim and in many others passages we are told to point out our faults to each other and strive aginst the world and sin.
See the thing that really gets me is the way "christians" have made christ common. If you read church history you will see a total difference in the way men talked about christ, willing to die for him and totally against wordly pleasures, this along with humbleness and holiness is what brings rivival and a real sense of God.
See i could accuse you of judging me, as well as others saying i was a pharisee and so on.
I would rather try to settle our differences through the scriptures.
I did not and will not judge your church, your pastor, or anything else i have no knowledge of.
But as this is a blog i would hope for proper debating through scripture, as i am sure i could learn as well as give my own input.
As far as music goes please see Joe Schimmel's web site on music, i am sure it will change your thinking, I know it changed mine.
Think the titles of the videos are they sold their souls for rock'n Roll and rock'en roll sorcerrers

Lee said...

Just seen your mate Brain's comment, surely you must delete this.
If he is calling me a "Bastard" I should like to know what he means, Surely he has oversteped the mark, I am well aware that the King James Bible uses the word before Brain comes from that angle.
Now he is either calling me a Bastard from a biblical point of view or a worldly point of view.
Either way is unacceptable, Because even from a biblical point of view he is saying i am not saved not one of God's children.
If he is saying it from a worldy point of view then he is insulting my mother, who by the way is a christian as was my father before he died, and yes he was my father.
I could think of lot of things to say but thanks be to God he gives me the grace to forgive such a pityfull man.

Anonymous said...

Could we please stop this now, I don't feel this is a constructive discussion in any way. If anything, it is sowing seeds of division and resentment. It is basically the same discussion, same views, that have been going around for days now in two or three of John's blog entries. Can we respect John's space and take the human, humble stance stance that he takes, not believing that we have 'all' the truth. God is bigger than all our views - amazingly he loves each of us the same!

Ldawg said...

So J, how was the Radiohead gig? ;)

neily g said...

hi

neily g said...

wass app john boy? u stirrin it up again?

neily g said...

i cud tell these boyos a few things about the rock n roll sorcerers!!

RobbieF said...

I don't see any "Brain's" here...hmm

J-Mac said...

Lee you may be the person who started this whole discussion but I'm not referring to you in this post about the self-righteous. Brian is not referring to you either, he is just quoting song lyrics. If you check out his blog (link to the right) you will see he is living out the values of Christ in an amazing way in Ibiza.

I don't think I have judged you or anyone else during the time of this discussion. If you feel that I have then I apologise.

I don't want this blog to be divisive. It is when we are united that God commands his blessing.

Please can I ask that we all communicate with more grace and in an understanding that none of us have got all the answers.

Anonymous said...

the thing is Lee ... and you won't accept it i'm sure ... YOU can take one bible verse orportion of scripture and feel it means something and I can take the same verse or portion and have it mean something completely different! am i right and you wrong? am i wrong and you right? or is the bible alive and that's where the Holy Spirit comes in? dunno? what you reckon?

Wiggy aka master splinter

Archie said...

I see now there is another page titled the self righteous. I really hope this is not directed at me as I have been offended an abused enough, by this blog already.

Iam an expounder and promoter of the grace of God , his unmerited favour, it is actually laughable to think that I would be thought of as self righteous.

I have absolutley no righteousness of my Own, But for the righteousness of Christ being imputed to my account with God, I would be in hell already, I do not rely on anything I have done or will do to see me right on Judgement day, I simply rely on Christ and his finished work.

May some of you understand that standing for the truth is not self righteousness, but obedience.
We are commanded in the Scriptures to earnestly contend for the faith once delivered unto the saints.
And to be attack for doing so is a crying shame.

Again do not mistake me for a self righteous person, Iam a great debtor to Grace.

"For by grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God not of works least anyone (including me) should boast"

"Oh to grace how great a debtor daily am constrained to be"

Jane said...

When I'm at the pearly gates
This will be on my videotape, my videotape
Mephistopheles is just beneath
and he's reaching up to grab me

This is one for the good days
and i have it all here
In red, blue, green
Red, blue, green

You are my center
When i spin away
Out of control on videotape
On videotape
On videotape
On videotape

Ohhhhh no no no no no no no....
This is my way of saying goodbye
Because I can't do it face to face
I'm talking to you but it's too late
From my videotape

No matter what happens now
I won't be afraid
Because I know today has been the most perfect day I've ever seen.

Mephistopheles is a name given to one of the chief demons of Christian mythology that figure in European literary traditions. The name is frequently used as an alternative form of Satan or the Devil.

These lyrics and the dedication above are written by Radiohead and can be found on their web site.

Can anyone on this blog show me where christ is in all of this?

This debate has never ever been about self righteousness. It has always, from what I can see, been about living according to God's word.

dave wiggins said...

not much you can say about that really

Anonymous said...

Sorry if the bastard thing caused offence, just quoting song lyrics. I have got more great lyrics we could use, but feel it wouldn't be constructive.

John shut your comments section down for a week or two, or even stop blogging you don't need this in your life.

Although at one level I like watching and contributing to an argument because I am giving up smoking so it's a good release.

Is there a car park we could all meet at say about midnight, we could agree terms in advance and then have a massive fight . Whoever wins the fight gets to be blog king or queen. Baseball bats would be acceptable as long as we agreed they could only be used for body shots.

It's amazing reading this gives a good picture of how religion has got out of hand over the years, especially were you live. To many opinions no one willing to back down and a reluctance to accept that there could be more than one right answer.

There are some seriously self righteous people posting on your blog. The one thing about self righteosness is that it is hardest to spot in ourselves, so they have just become defensive! Of course they are not sinners like the rest of us but pure in mind and motive.

Peace
Brain

Anonymous said...

Is it just me or does anyone think that some christian song lyrics are overly sexual? Phrase like " I can feel it rising deep inside of me" seem some what out of place in church!!!

dave wiggins said...

yeah ... lets fight!

Jane said...

Sorry Brian, as a self righteous christian (the gospel according to Brian) can you please point out to me the lyrics in Radioheads song that edifies christ? I'm still a bit confused. Apparently these type of lyrics contributed to the "trancendent" experience your friend had at their concert. Again I ask, because I'm simply not getting it, where is christ praised and glorified? It's a song dedicated to Satan so how, without wanting to sound self righteous, can this be good for a christian?

From the outside it seems to me that on one side we have the "self righteous" who say being in the world and participating in wordly things (ie, sex, drugs and rock n' roll)is contrary to scripture and then we have the "emmanuels" who seem to say you can do as you please as long as you have love.

As interesting as it is reading peoples comments and views, Brian is right in one thing, this debate could go on forever and what we have found is that those outside of your church hold one view and those in your church hold another, so no-one is going to back down from their belief.

This could go global. Is this a pay per click site?

Ibiza Stories said...

I like it, I don't actually go to emmanuel.

The gospel according to Brian, you must have seen one of my favourite films "The Life of Brian"

I am with you Jane, sorry if I came across as advocating being in sinful places.

Will you come to the fight in the car park? so far its just wiggins and me.

J-Mac said...

JANE...

1. I don't think these lyrics in anyway prove that radiohead are satanists. If you disagree then don't listen to them.

2. I would love to know what I have done to provoke such vitriol as in your previous post. Most Christians I know would not attack the worst sinners in that way (Jesus seemed to save most of his wrath for the religious folk!).

Anyway I don't care if you have a go at me. Since you don't know anything about me I pay little attention to it...
BUT...this is the second time you have had a go at my church and the people in it (who you also do not know). You seem determined to divide.

CAN I SAY NOW THAT THIS IS A PERSONAL BLOG. MY OPINIONS ARE IN NO WAY CONNECTED TO THOSE OF EMMANUEL, ITS LEADERS OR ANYONE IN IT.

Ldawg said...

Jane said..

From the outside it seems to me that on one side we have the "self righteous" who say being in the world and participating in wordly things (ie, sex, drugs and rock n' roll)is contrary to scripture and then we have the "emmanuels" who seem to say you can do as you please as long as you have love.

That is exactly how it looks from my point of view (I am an empirical agnostic). In fact it is one of the main scruples I have with organised religion.

btw, can I have even money on Wiggy to triumph in the carpark?

J-Mac said...

Ldawg...this is going to go round in circles all over again.

I have have never condoned drugs, sex, drunkeness...nor has anyone else on this blog (except for wiggy who was joking). I agree that we have to live our lives to a high moral standard. We should try to be more like Jesus. This does not have to result in self-righteousness.

I have never said 'we can do as we please as long as we have love'. But I do believe that love is much more important than any of these things. I wish there was more of it about.

J-Mac said...

let me say this again...

THIS IS A PERSONAL BLOG. MY OPINIONS ARE NOT CONNECTED TO AND HAVE NO REFLECTION ON THOSE OF EMMANUEL, ITS LEADERS OR ANYONE IN IT.

Archie said...

Who on these pages are self righteous ? and please give reasons for them being called such ?

LDAWG, I am sorry if I offended you on the other page, by telling you, you needed to be born again, but it is my duty as a Christian as I am sure you are aware. In fact you might not even have seen it as it was deleted by the person who runs this blog.

Your interest in this blog as a non Christian interests me very much, you seem to have a certain knowledge of the scriptures , which is comendable, but you musnt read them as any other book, but as the book of God, and the unfolding of Gods redemtive plan of salvation to sinners like you and me.

I will pray for you friend that God lift the scales from your eyes, and that the light of the gospel of Jesus Christ shine in upon your soul.

Archie said...

Who on these pages are self righteous ? and please give reasons for them being called such ?

LDAWG, I am sorry if I offended you on the other page, by telling you, you needed to be born again, but it is my duty as a Christian as I am sure you are aware. In fact you might not even have seen it as it was deleted by the person who runs this blog.

Your interest in this blog as a non Christian interests me very much, you seem to have a certain knowledge of the scriptures , which is comendable, but you musnt read them as any other book, but as the book of God, and the unfolding of Gods redemtive plan of salvation to sinners like you and me.

I will pray for you friend that God lift the scales from your eyes, and that the light of the gospel of Jesus Christ shine in upon your soul.

Ldawg said...

Apologies J, posted that at the same time you did, didnt get to read your post first.

On topic, one thing we ALL will agree on is how poor Thom Yorkes new effort 'eraser' is. It even poorer than that kid a tripe

Ibiza Stories said...

What does an empirical agnostic believe in?

Lee said...

Could i just address wiggy on his question about the scriptures.
Yes wiggy you are right I disagree, for the following reasons.

1 If we all get different interpertations of a portion of scripture then how can we know truth and how can there be unity?

2 I however do believe there is parts of the bible no man can understand like Revelation etc.
this causes a problem when men try to give their own views, and end up causing confusion.

3 I do believe also in certain scriptures there is more than one view that is right, but not different. in other words there is multiple views with one common denominator.
I believe one common interpretation, and many different applications.

Lee said...

Just to add all scpitures can be understood but only through the Holy Spirit.
My point throughout is if we are quenching, and grieving the spirit then how can we intepret the scriptures? Answer We cant, that is why there is so many different doctrines.
I feel we should only preach whst we know for sure God has shown us.
I have to say to all those who believe I and others are dividing this.
One division is very mush of God and another is not, the division that is of God is were truth, holiness, and the like cause offence and people rebel and separate, from the others who want holiness etc that is of God.
The kind that is not of God is were christians engage hurting other christians causing division for no reason.
I believe the reason for this debate was to create a people who would be willing to drop worldly pleasures for Chirst and holiness.
but i guess the division is here because they are not willing.

Drew said...

in relation to the comment regarding the sexual nature of some worship songs, example given "I can feel it rising deep inside of me", i think this is absolutely ridiculous.

From my experience of going out onto the steets of Belfast and Lurgan and, just even in times of worship, i can feel that something rising deep inside me, that unexplainable feeling which just makes me feel so desired by God, a determination to want to go and make a difference in this world which is so messed up...

So i cannot see any sexual refernce whatsoever here, and anyone who does i think would need to think about what mindset they have on Spirit led song writers, and the lyrics they produce in order to lead people into deeper relationships with Christ.

On a general note, i think th whole situation on this blog has got beyond a joke. At the end of the day, we are here to do a job, and thats to lie life for Christ and se the lost saved. It is however up to us in the end how we do this, an if we choose to be led by the spirit or nt. I think its time we started asking ourselves soe questions on why we are contantly bickering among each other creating division for, in the end nothing really, when we should be striving for unity among the brotherhood. And one key point in this is NOT SLAGGING OFF ANY CHURCH OR THEIR WAYS OF EVANGELISM OR POINTS OF VIEW. we have een called to be ONE BODY. Romans 12v5, " each one is part of thst body, and ech part belongs to all the other parts."
Lets get away from the nitty gritty and start looking at our own lives before we judge others.

Live life for Christ, in whatever way YOU ae lead to do that, and "WE MUST GO" to the places where we have been called to ourselves, every corner of the earth, every club, pub, brothel, casino etc.

Brothersand sisters, lets stop this all, and just live it for Christ.

Drew

dave wiggins said...

right ok lee ... anyway, keep er lit john boy! i'm gonna keep mine very light hearted and very little to do with doctrines or one thing or another. see you on Thursday night but i'd better not say where eh? wink nudge

Pastor Phil said...

Hi guys, call a truce. Lets just do what the scripture says, Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind and Love your nieghbour as yourself.
Surely where a man loves God is his own business and as regards loving our neighbour is it not walking the walk instesd of talking the talk.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.